vf-1 valkyrie vs. f-22a raptor, dr jack style
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TRUST VECTORING OWNS THE SKIES MACROSS ZERO STYLE!!!
(Oh man, been a while since I’ve seen that meme, but I needed to break out this section after realizing it was consuming 500 words in the upcoming thin slicing post. As always, I may or may not be high on codine as I right this.)
Origin
A bit of Macross history… the original VF-1 Valkyrie was entered into service in 2008 in the Macross timeline based on the variable geometry feature of the F-14 Tomcat.
The F-22A Raptor is the United States’ front line air superiority fighter entering service in late 2007. The competition to build the F-22A is a creative impulse behind Macross Plus.
Specs
Engines
VF-1: 2 x Thermonuclear Turbines @ 113kN
F-22A: 2 x Pratt & Whitney Turbofans @ 156kN (guessed)
Top Speed at Low Altitudes
VF-1: Mach 2.7
F-22A: Mach 2.5+ (guessed)
Service Ceiling
VF-1: Space Capable
F-22A: 65,000ft
Weight
VF-1: 13,250kg (unloaded), 18,500kg (loaded)
F-22A: 14,000kg (unloaded), 25,000kg (loaded)
The VF-1 is designed for both atmospheric and space combat, and hence why it utilizes thermonuclear power instead of traditional turbofans. I don’t really understand how with nuclear turbines and (hopefully) lead shielding for the pilots (or there’s no way in hell Fokker is having a kid) can weigh less than a F-22A. The F-22A can carry a larger weapon load than the VF-1 but isn’t as fast.
Weapon System
VF-1 features an impressive arsenal to pick from. It has a laser cannon (which can be used as a laser pistol in battroid mode, a complement of AMM-1 air defense missiles (80 mile range), the classic Macross contrail missile spam system (1 mile range), various machine guns, various dumb bomb, and hand-to-hand combat knives. Optionally, it can carry an annoying jpop singer. Unfortunately, it is unclear what kind of sensor package the VF-1 uses.
F-22A features AIM-120 air defense missiles (120 mile range), AIM-9 (11 mile range), and JDAM or dumb bombs. The F-22A’s sensor package has an estimated performance of finding 1m^2 cross sections 125 miles away.
Defining Feature
In the Macross world, the VF-1 is the first dual variable geometry fighter. Like the F-14, the VF-1 has a sweep wing capability in fighter mode. Unlike any other fighter, it has two additional combat modes, GERWALK (chicken walker) and Battroid (mecha). GERWALK is intended for low altitude combat whereas the Battroid is intended for ground combat. After all, nothing says military efficiency than using your nuclear powered space fighter as a ground pounder.
The F-22A is defined best by its numerous cost overruns stealth technology. Stealth is the modern day paradigm for fighter combat as one cannot shoot down what one cannot see. The F-22A also features one of the most advanced radar systems on any airplace. Coupled with stealthiness, the F-22A can also act like a mini-AWACS platform that can operate closer to the battlefield. If Kogarashi were a fighter plane, the F-22A would be the exact opposite of that.
Meme Generation
Can’t think of any meme from VF-1… but the trust vectoring nozzle engines of the F-22A inspired the unfortunate TRUST VECTORING OWNS THE SKIES MACROSS ZERO STYLE!!! meme that I’m subjecting you to right now.
Conclusion
The main problem with the VF-1 is how dated it is. It was envisioned during a time when the F-14 Tomcat was the “dream” fighter, and decades of avionics advancement has passed it by. The VF-1’s Achilles’ heel is its nuclear engines that allow it to go up into space. Even if they somehow discovered a light enough material that allows pilots to procreate and not develop tumors, it doesn’t solve the tremendous heat and overall radiation that nuclear engines give off. It’s an aircraft that’s as easy to spot as a crappy Studio Deen anime. Basically, a sitting duck in modern air combat. To make matters worse, it trades off its main assets (altitude and speed) to transform into even less-stealthy humanoid forms.
Meanwhile, with a classified radar cross section, the F-22A is a difficult target to find. With its top-of-the-line radar system, the odds that the F-22A can find the VF-1 before the VF-1 can find the F-22A is great. The F-22A also has a longer reach air-to-air missile system whereas the VF-1 seems situated to more close range combat.
When the Macross world was envisioned back before most of my readers were born, stealth and radar cross-sections were as important as English and calculus were to Mike Tyson in grade school. Time has passed the VF-1 by.
(If I were designing a new kick ass Macross fighter today, wouldn’t I start with the VF-19 or VF-21 of Macross Plus? Stealth and automation are the future. Or at least base it on the F-22A or Global Hawk? Nah, I’m just going to strap more crap to something that looks like the VF-1, VF-4, and VF-11 and call it the “VF-25.” Time has passed the Macross franchise by.)
68 Responses to “vf-1 valkyrie vs. f-22a raptor, dr jack style”
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I have to wonder how the retro-designed VF-25 fares in light of how quickly real-world fighter tech advanced. I mean, it lacks some of the tech that the previous ‘elite’ model, the Nightmare (from Macross 7) had, like stealth tech and advanced avionics… Which, mind you were pretty useless against the spiritia-sucking Protodevlin.
A modern-day variable fighter might resemble the US Navy’s F-14 replacement program – I’m having problems finding images of it, but think of a navalised cross between the F-14’s variable geometry wings and the F-22’s stealth capabilities. This was shot down hard due to the fact that variable geometry is excessively heavy and very hard to properly “stealth”.
The original mission requirements, I -think-, of the VF program were to fight Zentraedi while still retaining a fighter format in order to conceal the truth behind these new war machines. At this point, why not a tank-like design?
http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/unicorn/d-50c.htm <– D-50C Loto, from Gundam Unicorn
http://mahq.net/mecha/gundam/f91/f-50d.htm <– F-50D (RXR-44) Guntank R-44, but this looks stupidly like a mecha in tank form anyways.
If Zentraedi were invading, I personally would just use nuclear SAMs on them anyways.
As long as technology can fail there will be human pilots. I think the thing we have to keep in mind about air planes is that even if they become obsolete they still retain some of that ye olde war bird dignity. I still think Spitfires and P-51 Mustangs are beautiful machines. I care not that the VF-25 is by today’s standards dated, it is still a sweet looking machine and there is nary a man who would pass up on such a glorious machine. Just because we haven’t fought he Eugenics War doesn’t mean we can’t shout KKKHHHHHAAAAANNNNN! every once in a while.
The timelessness in Macross is not based upon predicting future fighter development, but rather the love triangle, music and missile spam. Just because we did not have totalitarian government by 1984 doesn’t make 1984 a bad book. Sci-fi is not about the technology being the star but more often its is about how people interact in the environment it brings. The thing about Sci-fi is that it is everywhere now since science and technology caught up. Science fiction does not predict the future, but rather possible futures. Moreover it is not some much about the future but rather the present in the post modern world. Yes I am taking a science fiction class for upper division English.
One thing I always forget, however, is the fact that the F-14 is probably one of the most badass aircraft. Ever.
DANGERZONE.
not to mention it packed one of the most powerful, longest range, and expensive air to air missile systems ever, the AIM-54 Phoenix. 6 missiles capable of simultaneous launch, missile spam anyone? a $2.9 million missile spam indeed.
why are you comparing vf-1 valkyrie to a f-22a raptor?
are you complaining that the figthers are a waste of money or are you saying that it is sad to see real life air planes are proving vf-1 planes are not possible to make?
music star defence is going to be future defence you can count on it!!!
(just like you can count on Mikuru defence!!!)
F-14 would be better, the VF-1’s where molded off Tomcats
First we’ll build Gundams. And then the entire Earth will be subjected to terrorist plots and colony invasions. We’ll fight off aliens with Gundams because we are that prideful of our inefficient and physics-bending machines. Yep.
And Focker will NEVER have a kid. ;_;
Given the ‘current’ front line fighter, the VF-171, has a relatively strong anti-EW package, I suspect that stealth in the Macross universe has more to do with active systems than the passive ones used in the F-22 – which makes sense given that they’re fighting in space an awful lot. The VF-25? We’ll have to see what tricks she has up her sleeves.
P.S. – check your mail.
Stealth is overrated. Its one only advantage is the first strike. The problem is that the first strike usually does not end the conflict. One missile can take out at most one plane. After that, everybody sees you, and those stealth fighters, due to their angular design, are not very good at aero-maneuver. So, usually they have to retreat immediately and let the real fighters — less stealthy — to move in and finish the job.
So, you can’t just have stealth fighters. They are just one part of the tactical equation.
In the same way, the Macross universe may have some stealth units for the first strike purpose too. But they will have to have the hardcore fighters like the VF1 or the VF25 too.
I hate stealth. Its one of the most unmanly things that a man can use.And I think that battledroid mode has an advantage, so it is slower than the fighter mode, but it has superior agility (meaning can easily change direction) and out maneuver the fast moving planes which are fast but moving in a linear direction. Humanoid/BattleDroid form also has superior firing arc meaning it can fire at on a direction even though its not moving towards it.
Fighters are fast, but their movement is linear and the are easy to hit. Maybe there is a reason why a Harrier took down Mirage fighters, even if Harriers are slow, they are more maneuverable and can just move behind the fast but more linear moving fighters.
@bakaneko
However, when fighting F-22As, or just about any fighter with stealth capabilities, chances are, even after the first shot, no one would know who shot that missile. The radars won’t work, and there’s still trouble seeing through all that cloud. Wait until the second one comes, and the third one, and the fourth one, and heck, until the F-22A has used up all its missile loadout, it isn’t even shot yet because nobody knew where all those missiles are coming from. You just can’t plain shoot down what you cannot see. Especially at the right conditions.
I forgot to add (curse the difficulty finding the edit function), the Raptor will not be fighting alone. I believe that these F-22As will be deployed as a squadron. So after the first shot out of nowhere, you can expect that there will be many VF-1s shot down, and before the VF-1s could recover from that surprise attack, more will get shot down, and by the time they could start dogfighting, there’s already a number advantage on the part of the F-22As. That’s not counting visibility factors and even time of day.
Yeah, I sorta of remember the Cold War days when SPEED was all the rage. Then people saw a slow-ass Harrier taking out faster Mirage, it was like “hey, maybe speed is not the end-all be-all attribute in dogfight after all?”
Now it’s mostly about maneuvrability and, to a lesser extent, stealth (Surprise being a HUGE factor).
Can’t we all just get along? T_T
…no? Alright, I’ll have something outta the Star Wars universe then, please (those guys design some good, functional fighters…)
Nyan Nyan~ Nyan Nyan~ ni hao nyan~
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME
In the right conditions a A-10 can take out an F-14 or any other air superiority fighter. All you need is a low altitude fight and some terran that forces the fast fighter to slow down, and dogfight the tank-buster.
Macross tech tends to use active radar jamming systems, perhaps it maybe that the alien technology has better sensors that negate the F-22’s passive stealth ability (mass sensors will still find an F-22 I imagine). Though as pointed out the Macross 7 era fighters had some stealth (F-117 based) fighters…note the F-117 are being retired in 2008 while the F-14 was retired in 2007. We will have to wait to see what new fighter the Navy gets to replace the F-14 and now common F-18s. While the F-18s have more utility, replacing multipe aircraft types on the carriers, they don’t have the air superiority range of the F-14….nothing does. Only the proposed F-111(B?) carrier version would have been able to do what the F-14 did…carry the Pheonix missile. However we live in a different world than the world that designed the F-14s in the late 1960s. The threat of attack from long range bombers and missiles is somewhat less than it use to be for the carriers. However the F-14 and F-22 I believe have different ways of doing the same job: Air Superiority. If you, as a human, expect that in most cases dealing with aliens, you will be under attack, rather than attacking, or having good recon data…then building a cheaper, non-stealthy fighter would be the way to go. In Macross, you want numbers, because the enemy will jump you with a larger force than you have…it is an accepted fact in their lives.
So the F-22A launches their surprise barrage of missiles, maybe the some kind of system inside VF-1 can detect the incoming missiles, go Battle Droid mode and shoot down the missiles since they can shoot at any angle while moving.
Then they can go Gerwalk mode and move like a bunch of Harriers and out maneuver those F-22As if they find it
Are Asimov’s Foundation series considered bad because they didn’t envision computers, or never once mentioned black holes and pulsars while detailing the galaxy?
This whole argument reminds me of another I had with a friend while playing SMB3.
“This is so unrealistic. You shouldn’t be able to jump higher with a running start. Longer, sure but not higher. This game has no grasp of physics.”
“Yeah, and if you eat a leaf, you grow a tail and can fly. What’s your point?”
“….”
Trying to actually compare any sort of sci-fi weapons system, especially one from anime, with any real system = fail. What’s next, a serious discussion about how the military is criminally negligent for not abandoning MBT research in favor of lions? After all, the lions from Voltron were MUCH more maneuverable than a tank, and would easily win in a fight. The tanks inability to perform such basic maneuvers as jumping, or combining to form a super robot, instantly doom them to obsolescense.
>> Stealth is overrated.
108:0 kill:loss ratio at last simulated wargames against the F-15:
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123022371
>> carry the Pheonix missile
Phoenix missile was retired from service in 2005 in favor of the AIM-120. One big reason? Each one weighed about 3x more than then AIM-120, and it required a dedicated launched that added even more weight. It’s only advantage is that it is a slightly faster missile, but the AIM-120 can go farther.
You forgot to add +infinity coolness points to the VF-1 for being able to transform into giant humanoid robot.>/bias<
Ugh, my HTML-fu is weak. These things need a comment preview option.
This talk about the VF1 being based on the F14, the cool fighter of the 1980s, threw me back to the movies like Back to the Future, where the authors’ visions of the future were based off what they had in the 1980s (US x USSR antagonism, BIG HAIR, etc…), what would we have if it was done in the 2000s? Emo hair, the Big Bad Bill as ruling dicator of the future version of Internet and boss of Future McFly?
So were are my Cafe ’80s? They’d be stupid, but in a funny way.
Aww… bashing Macross for not being realistic enough is too easy. Try Gundam. ;)
Seriously, at least Macross _try_ to look realistic and plausible. Can you say the same with Gundam series?
The AIM-120 can go father?
The D version yes, but even so the AIM-54 would get there first (Mach 5 vs Mach 4 is hardly “slightly faster”) and even so the D version is a PLANED upgrade, current in use C5 version have less range that the AIM-54.
The AIM-54 was phased out for costs ($477,131 USD vs $386,000 USD) and because it was only in use by a aircraft (F-14) by a single branch (US Navy).
Of course we have to realize a few things, the AIM-120 is from 1991 as the AIM-54 is from 1974 so there are performance differences even if both were to replace the same missile (AIM-7 Sparrow that was … how can I put this … crap), the AIM-54 might have run its course but today it still BETTER that that the AIM-120 in a lot of areas.
Of course if they were makng the VF-0 prototypes now they’d either base it off the F/A-18E Super Hornets (carrier ops is Macross style) or the F-22, as both were still more or less in the test phase in 1999 (when the Macross crashed). Of course the veriable fighter concept might require a larger airframe for it to work.
However I’d rather go Full Metal Panic style mechs and active stealth for the win please Alex.
(Mixed Macross/FMP! style?)
I think they would use the later Su and MiG instead, the “super” Hornet is still a F-18 and that goes back to the Y-17 prototype that lost against what became the F-16.
The F-22 despite being “attractive” lacks the aggressive look of the Su-27/Mig-29 design.
The F-22 is truly ridiculous. It achieved its ridiculous kill ratios because it killed F-15s before the F-15s even knew they were in a fight. Stealth overrated? How are you going to follow a missile 100 miles back to its source? Even if you could, without radar, how are you going to fire your missiles at it?
Anyways, the F-14 is the sexiest fighter that ever was so I’m glad they are using that design for the look of the V-25. Stealth isn’t that important in space because even if you can hide from radar, your heat is going to give you away. As for the rest, you can’t know what’s in the V-25 just because it looks like a V-1.
I don’t know if I am taking this topic too seriously, but I have always loved the technical aspects of sci-fi:
A thermonuclear engine probably works by using fusion as the heat source rather than a chemical reaction. Why heat air through burning fuel when you can run it through the core of the sun? If the fusion reactions are small enough (no need to power cities or wipe an island off the map), then the shielding doesn’t need to be massive. And depending on how the reactor is designed, it is conceivable that the engine would be smaller than a typical turbine engine (as hinted in Macross Zero in how the VF-0s have longer legs to accommodate a standard engine) because a nuclear fusion reaction is more powerful and efficient per cubic meter of fuel compared to fission compared to any chemical reaction.
Now if you consider that spec-wise the VF-1 is faster than a F-22, then lets argue about stealth. The stealth design behind the F-22 is not as good as the F-117 or B-2. It still presents a radar signature, just a much smaller one than a typical fighter. So it will detect its target first, but the target will eventually detect the F-22. Also note that the F-22’s stealth only applies to the front of the plane and loses its stealth aspect if targeted from the rear.
So assuming the VF-1 would be using the latest sensor package like the F-22 and the F-22 gets the first shot and fires a missile. While the F-22 has thrust vectoring, the VF-1 has stop-on-a-dime vectoring and chaff and flares. If we take Macross Zero as any evidence of what will happen when a traditional fighter comes up against a variable fighter, Roy’s VF-0 had no problem taking out scores of missiles w/ its head-mounted lasers and hand-carried gunpod. If all a F-22 is going to fire is one missile at a time (the missiles aren’t stealth), I don’t see any risk to the VF-1. Even if the F-22 fired all of its 10 missiles (not possible since they have different ranges), it probably wouldn’t challenge a VF-1 pilot. At this point, it just comes down to the VF-1 closing the distance between the two fighters to put its gunpod in play (note the VF-1 also carries missiles).
In the opening fight scene we see how much of an advantage the VF-1 will have in close-range combat when Shin’s F-14 closes in on Nora’s SV-51 and loses it when Nora engages her Gerwalk mode to stop and get above and behind Shin and shoot him down. Once engaged in close combat, the VF-1 will have a huge advantage in its maneuverability.
Even if the VF-1’s design is getting old, the principles behind the design still holds in the YF-19 (personal favorite) and YF-21 of Macross Plus. If you also consider that those two are equipped with pin-point barriers, active stealth, many internal missiles and engines that can achieve low earth orbit, a squadron of F-22s won’t stand a chance (I know, 30 year tech difference).
zomglazerspewpewpew (05:40:36, #159557) :
I hate stealth. Its one of the most unmanly things that a man can use.
I’d rather be less of a man and the winner of a battle or war, than a zomgmanlyman… and dead, and the loser.
War is not about being fair. War is about winning. There IS nothing else more important, because the cost of losing might be too much to bear.
The Bushido concept is great, right up until the moment you start charging a line of machine gun nests whilst waving your sword around. Yup, you’re manly… and dead before you get within 100 yards of those marines with the .50cal HMGs.
Of course they could have gone with the original option for the F-117…paint it pink. That’s right pink. They proved that a pinkish color is the hardest to actually see at night, not black. The designers cancelled the idea before even thinking of letting the pilots protest about flying pink attack fighters. if you think shealth is not manly, imagine an even better night shealth fighter…pink. All is fair in war if one wins, but would a pilot fly a pink fighter? I’m not counting the rather vivid colors of the Fire Bomber fighters from Macross 7. I cringed when I first heard the idea of “Minmay Attack!” as a plan against female Zendroti (though them going all fangirl while the humans have a “wtf” face was classic). Of course applying a serious sound system via missile directly to the enemy bridge was also classic.
My favorite plane is still the MiG-25, for all its faults. Is that whole thing about the radar being able to kill people at close range true?
My favorite one was the Flanker. Back in the Cold War days, before the Berlin Wall fall, we kids played Cold War with paper planes, I’d take the Red side because they have the sexy Flankers.
In the Macross universe, the fall of the SDF-1 through the atmosphere in 1999 was a flashpoint for the world war that followed. In 1999, F14s were still widely used, so it is not inconceivable that they would be the basis for a new generation of fighters.
Also keep in mind that long range missles are pointless when the VF-1 in humaniod mode can easily shoot down anything that comes close (and also dodge laser beams).
Ithekro, I read about that as well I think in Popular Science. I remember that pink is actually a better all-environment color since it blends well in a sunset as mild enough to not stand out in a blue sky.
As far as ‘meme generation’ goes… you’ve got all of the transforming fighter/mecha shows of the 80’s that owe a debt to Macross for making it ‘cool’, versus the ‘things join together’ version of transforming mecha that was around before Macross came around… and I second whoever said that they hate to bring ‘RL’ comparisons into anime.
But since we’re on the topic, ‘passive’ stealth systems probably aren’t going to be all THAT useful in space, at least not beyond certain ranges and for anything but visual light; no matter what, a fighter’ll be ‘warmer’ than the surrounding space on passives, and will show up on active scanners unless it has a good way to spoof it as passive systems can only do so much. The stealth in the F-22 is a combination of shapes which reflect the radar inside and don’t return the reflection to the sensor as well as materials (IIRC) which absorb radar waves as well. Anti-infrared measures are limited, since the airframe will STILL radiate heat differently than the surrounding air, but you can ‘stealth’ it enough from behind that it makes tracking and targeting more difficult for anything using infrared seeking.
What it does come down to is that the F-22 is an air superiority fighter whose prowess is based on the ability to hit first and maneuver very well… but not to be extremely fast, nor to be extremely well-armed. The VF-1 was designed mostly to operate in multiple environments, and to do it well; as well as having the ability to do things no air superiority fighter can do. But given the performance of even the VF-0 in Macross Zero, I’d probably have to say that if the F-22 can be seen, it can be killed by the VF… and the former’s stealth isn’t great beyond the front and rear angles. Plus, of course, you’ve got all that super-tech in the VF- and its successors. Passive systems are great and all, but if you’re using active sensors ANYWAYS (as the Zentradi were doing, then the Protodevlin, and apparently now the Vajra who display some skill in electronic warfare and corrupting drone systems), then you’re hooped.
@ Kikaifan
I haven’t heard about it being able to kill a person, but it certainly wouldn’t be pleasant. I have read that the Foxbat’s radar would cook small animals at close range when they ventured too close to the airfields. As a cheap low-tech interceptor, it was fantastic. However, they couldn’t sustain speeds above Mach 3 for more than a few minutes without chewing up the engine. With all the nickel and stainless steel used to build them (titanium being so expensive and difficult to work with) they were about as maneuverable as bricks.
@various
The thing to remember about the AIM-54 (based on tech from the Air Force YF-12’s GAR-9/AIM-47) is that it was designed to streak out and hit Soviet bombers. It can’t turn well and relies on a large warhead (early concepts were nuclear) to finish the job. An AIM-120 is going to have a much better chance of hitting a maneuverable target at range.
Pink was used for a short time to camoflague periscopes of US subs in WW2. They eventually went back to gray.
well, if war is about winning at all cost, why make flashy planes, tanks, ships, and submarines ,why not spam the enemy with nukes? Nuke all major city and kill the majority of the civilian population, the rest can just die from cancer. Plus the multiple nuclear strikes will turn the enemy country into a wasteland for a long time or even permanently. That country will never recover and the war will be won without anyone getting killed on your side. And if any nation question your use of the nukes, let them have to taste of it too.
zomglazerspewpewpew: Because unless you’re going to war to completely destroy the other side, they generally have things you want (land, resources, technology) that you don’t want to nuke. Therefore you have smaller-scale weapons that leave SOME things intact, or don’t poison the land you’re trying to take. Plus, nukes are expensive and if you’re not the only nation with them… well, then you’re screwed.
Not to mention that using a nuke is a surefire way to get nuked yourself.
That’s why I said ‘screwed’, JohnG. Since most modern nations basically will respond with a WMD of their own, plus the fact that the buggers are expensive to maintain and deploy. Stealth will let you kill things without getting killed in turn, sometimes. But in this case, as in many other situations, it only lasts until you attack: the stealthiness of the F-22 goes away the moment you open those missile bay doors – and with the FAST pack the Super version carried, that’s an invitation to an Itano Circus.
>> >> Stealth is overrated.
>> 108:0 kill:loss ratio at last simulated wargames against the F-15:
The Sims says I get to score a different girl everyday too.
108:0 is pretty good. Too bad they aren’t Navy planes. Since Macross does carrier ops, and F-22 variable jet isn’t going to do them much good. Now if the F-22 can be modified for carrier ops, then you can have it in place of the VF-1 (as a new VF-1 that wasn’t based on the F-14).
I do wonder if that record will stand in real world combat? It depends on who they are engaging I suppose. If it is two or three generations behind Third World piloted aircraft like most engagements of the last 30 years, then no problem. If they actually have to fight a larger air war against Russian aircraft, or purchased American aircraft (either one generation behind, or their own generation (sold F-22s for example) then the ratio might not hold. I don’t know about Chinese aircraft types anymore, or what they are buying and or producting for themselves.
As to using Russian planes…given the storyline and real world relations in 1999…I doubt the UN veritech program would be able to get their hands on any Russian manufacturing source. The lines and balance of power, even without a Soviet Union, are still fairly defined. It would liiely have been the F/A-18s due to carrier ops requirement, larger numbers (since they where replacing two aircraft, the A-6 and the F-14, thus more squadrons of them in service than the F-14 alone) and intra-service use (Marines and Navy at least). The Air Force might have been able to counter with the prototype YF-22s, but if they wanted rapid production ability, they would need to go with the F-15 or F-16 due to there being more parts and they were in production at the time, rather than testing or limited production. By the present day, the VF-1s and whatever the Air Force used would be good planes, but there would probably be a VF-2 (or the VF-4) in production using the newer technology of the F-22 and Joint Strike Fighter to eventually replace the older “existing at the time for expediant production” model aircraft.
This is derailed by darry
discussing a mecha topic seriously
and no jokes on american sports or references to brokeness, delicious thigh meat or meido
>>>I may or may not be high on codine as I right this.
the way this post was written, i’d say its more codine.
Oh well, all in the name of a thin slicing post. Good tradeoff, i’ll say
On the subject of the wargame: The Raptor pilots were flying against the cream of the USAF’s crop of agressors in Red Flag, THE most realistic wargame ever, which pretty much simulates the USAF fighting an enemy a fuckload smarter than it.
An Australian exchange pilot with an F-15 agressor squadron debunked all claims of the Raptor being easier to lock on from the rear when he reported that he was right behind one, it was in sight, in front of him – and he could not get a lock.
The pilots that the Raptors flew against in Red Flag are using top of the line, state of the art US equipment. They know what they’re doing. These are among the best pilots in the USAF. And they still got their asses kicked.
As for a carrier-based stealth jet, the Navy has the F-35C, which is related to the F-22, and is a also stealth fighter. The VF-171s reminded me very much of the F-35, what with the nose shape and gold-tinted visor.
Besides, all things considered, the Tomcat look is classic. It’s one of those things that you just gotta accept and go with the flow.
“Stealth is overrated. Its one only advantage is the first strike. The problem is that the first strike usually does not end the conflict. One missile can take out at most one plane. After that, everybody sees you, and those stealth fighters, due to their angular design, are not very good at aero-maneuver. So, usually they have to retreat immediately and let the real fighters — less stealthy — to move in and finish the job.
So, you can’t just have stealth fighters. They are just one part of the tactical equation.”
That idea might hold when talking about the B-2 and F-117 which pretty much only have stealth for any kind of self defense, but that doesn’t hold for the F-22. The reason it’s doing so well in wargames has a huge amount to do with it’s stealth, but also because the meme inspiring thrust vectoring which make it pretty much the most maneuverable thing in the air, and while it’s top speed is lower than that of the F-15 or traditional bomber interceptors, it can maintain speeds of mach 1.5 without the use of afterburners. All of this combines to make it the fastest, best armed, most maneuverable, and hardest to hit air-superiority fighter ever. Any one of those traits wouldn’t guarantee air dominance(having just speed or having just maneuverability or having just stealth), but having all three in one well armed plane make it’s claims to be the most powerful air-air superiority fighter ever fielded more than just hot air.
And the wargames aren’t done in simulators, they’re done using the actual planes in real world conditions and the only thing that seperates them from being actual battles is that they don’t actually fire the missles once they get a lock.
Anyway, I agree trying to compare anime mecha to real life examples because well, all those shows trying to show mecha perform against traditional fighters are assuming that such things could actually stay in the air, or that having a wide firing arc makes things alright. To that I’ll just say that old ww2 B-17 formations and naval ships had pretty much 360 degree firings arcs, being able to fire in all directions at the same time, and still had horrible accuracy rates against the old prop driven planes because they were just too fast and too maneuverable to get good accuracy on. A wide firing arc does not a superior weapons platform make. Of course the systems on a VF-1 would be better at tracking, but the F-22 is also much faster, harder to track, and more maneuverable than a ww2 era prop plane. In a real dogfight mehca designs(assuming the things CAN actually stay in the air) always bleed off way too much speed when they transform, so if the transform get behind and shoot tactic doesn’t work, then they are going to have a bitch of a time because they’ve bled off so much energy they’ll be hard pressed to get moving again, which for all their stationary agility will make them sitting ducks for any fighter that wants to take passes at them.
One of the things I would like to note re: passive/active radar cancellation systems is that passive systems are designed for retaliation against single targets. If I pointed at an F-22, I couldn’t see it.
But my buddy, flying orbit 10km to my east, would be able to, due to the scattering effect. And with that, we just triangulate and shoot down the Yank.
Of course, with active cancellation, you can fire anti-radiation missiles at the target. At which point the target (variable fighter, let’s say) should have some sort of point defense system or flare to confuse the missile.
The AIM-120 AMRAAM is a superior weapon to the Phoenix, but the F-14 is a far more badass looking jet than the F/A-18E/F.
Well, for thrust vectoring… I’d have to say that we’ve got some of that in the VF-1, which has been demonstrated to do the same by either adjusting the rear ‘deflectors’ (aka the feet) or by flipping the legs out and breaking and burning hard. It also does supersonic without afterburners (aka: a hell of a supercruise) just like the F-22 does, and even when it does transform has the ability to turn and shoot even if another fighter wants to make a pass at it; it has an ungodly thrust-to-mass ratio from what we can see (and would have to, in order to be able to leave Earth’s atmosphere under its own power, much less hover in Battroid mode the way they do in the show.
We don’t have all the specifics of the Macross-verse fighters, but we DO know that they seem to employ a lot more ECM and EECM-technology than current air fleets do; this is probably because the enemies they fight tend to use those more, or have sensors which minimize the benefits of passive stealth. In Macross Frontier, we’ve got an enemy who can fool drones and pull off electronic attacks while in combat… and who have big guns to boot. That’s what they’re apparently designing Valkyries to fight… which means a different design philosophy.
…
This is not the argument you want to make, because it takes military hardware the real world and compares it with something decidedly over-the-top, and fictional. Saying the real-world item would win is something military buffs like to do, and also nationalists, but usually they have to ignore a lot of the fictional source material to make their claims.
The conclusion that the F-22a Raptor could take on a VF-1 Valkyrie is very much one of those arguments, as a lot of these source-material-citing comments indicate.
Is it just me, or are people forgetting something? In Macross, massive swarms of missles moving ridiculously fast and angling off trajectories both impossible and seemingly impossible-to-predict get shot down by VF-1’s in “that there robot mode.” Back when I was a kid and saw it in its Robotech incarnation, I thought that was pretty awesome. And I’m pretty sure those missles move like they were thrust-vectored by a wickedly devious AI. This kind of renders a lot of the F-22’s advantage moot, because the Raptor can’t even *hit* the VF-1 with its main weapon.
Also, VF-1s dodge lasers. Honestly.
But yeah, as Crusader said, the thing about Macross is “love, music, and missles.” All the stealthy, super-maneuverable F-22’s in the world won’t be able to save you save you from the Zentraedi. No, for that, you’ll need to pull out the Minmay defense.
Dorian: I think we’ve already brought up the ‘RL meets anime = trouble” thing.. but yeah, Macross has a LOT of unrealistic stuff. But then again, this is the universe where love and music really does conquer all. Especially aliens who have ‘wickedly devious AI’ of their own – look at how the Vajra spoof and subvert or confuse drone and missile swarms in Macross F.
Plus the whole ‘the F-22 loses its stealth when you open the missile bay doors to launch weapons’ thing is something to consider – when the Valkyries have lasers to go with those missiles.
The fun part about the Valkyrie vs Raptor thing is that I’m still very sure that the Valkyrie, with its transformation and that -wonderful- ability to lock on to missiles and use its gunpod as a point defence weapon, would be much, much more capable than the Raptor. No contest. Even with all the source material you can pull from the Raptor, there are simple ways of defeating passive stealth technology.
From how they’re showing off the VF-25 in Macross Frontier, it looks like they’re making it the hot rod of the series compared to the luxury cars YF-19 and YF-21. They’re forgoing a lot of the fancy tech that was in Macross Plus and instead concentrating on a plane that goes very fast. And it’s pretty overkill considering they’re using 5 rockets on the VF-25’s FAST pack. I guess for an enemy that can confuse missiles and drones, going back to basics is the only option.
And stealth is pretty overrated if it’s going to cost you $386 million PER PLANE! You can easily buy 6 Eurofighter Typhoons (which compares pretty well to the F-22) for that amount. The US had planned to replace its 700 F-15s ($20 mill/plane) with F-22s, but are only purchasing 180 (down from 750) to do that. Now this might be a moot point if we knew how much a VF-1 cost…
Actually, I was sorta under the impression that for the VF-25, they wanted to go back to the basics and go for a plane whose looks screamed Badass MotherF**ker, like the Tomcat.
Who knows? Maybe these thoughts were in the mind of Kawamori: “Tomcat is dead! It’s no longer with us! But in our hearts, in the VF-25, it lives on in us!” *grins*
Jounin- the VF-25 lacks the fancy gadgets of the 19 and 21, but it does seem more robust and flexible in loadout and mission profile. The VF-19 and and -21 remind me more of concept cars than luxury vehicles – they seemed to exist more to develop tdchnologies and work out bugs than to be used as front line fighters, due to the sheer amount of gadgetry on each plane – the -21 feels like they trimmed a lot of the unneccessary features to leave it a deadly dogfighter/ space superiority craft.
Goose – that’s probably part of it – along with a desire to bring back feelings of nostalgia for the original VF-1. That, and it dogfights very prettily ;) (“I feel the need. The need… for speed.”)
Sometthing to remember is that the VF-1 Valkyrie was designed to allow humans to fight on the same scale as their probable enemies.
Also, in space, the best way to find your enemy is through their heat signature…ANYTHING in space with it’s own power source is going to be hotter than the background, perhaps substantially hotter. That, coupled with unknown alien sensor technologies (Radar in the real world is about the best you can get right now, and there isn’t a whole lot of variation in actual radar performance) means you *really* can’t rely on stealth.
Also, the VF-1’s weapon loadout was designed partially to capitalize on the ‘target rich’ environment present in the series. I mean, c’mon, the fleet that attacked the Earth was MILLIONS of ships strong, and that was a small fraction of the total Zentraedi forces.
Furthermore, the odds of the VF-1’s using a fission-based power source are…rather low. For one thing, fission-based power sources are either low-gain (like long term batteries) or based upon a sort of steam turbine. It’s much more likely it was a pair of fusion-based engines fueled by hydrogen or other easily-fused/easily-compressed source. Fusion can be made to create far less nutrino flux(I believe that’s the term), which is what causes components to become irradiated. The radiation can also be ‘vectored’. Clearly the important parts to protect are the cockpit area..shunt or reflect the radiation away from the cockpit and you’re part of the way to powering an aerospace fighter with nuclear reactors.
The snapping-on of bits that reduce stealth and maneuverability is also a valid tactic in a target-rich environment, where one needs a large weapons load and the raw thrust to get there with said firepower in time. Notice that rarely are these FAST packs used in an atmosphere. This is partly because the systems create too much drag, and partly because their additions to maneuverability and speed are negated by the atmosphere. (These armor and weapons components have extra maneuvering thrusters for use in space, since the fighter’s atmospheric maneuvering planes (Rudders, etc) are of course useless)
I think they had a good idea continuing with the ‘dogfight’ mentality in Macross. First off, if you’re too far away, it gives your enemy a *very* long time to notice and avoid your missile, and there’s not many ways to stealth *that*…at least, not many that are at all worth the expense for a one-shot weapon. Second, the way the Raptor’s weapons bays are, as soon as they open them up to fire, it absolutely ruins their tiny radar cross-section, basically putting up a giant neon ‘SHOOT ME’ sign…Third, in space, since there’s no blurring due to distance through the atmosphere, much of their targeting seems to be visual. You can see very clearly a *lot* farther in space, even unaided.
Besides, sniping at one another from eleventy-pickle miles away doesn’t (usually) make for a very compelling series. (That said, while wanting to finish watching Banner of the Stars II…)
Anyhow, the fighters in Macross aren’t meant to be the heavies. The heavies can crack mile-diameter space rocks like walnuts. The heavies are ships like the Macross and New Macross class’s (The SDF’s). The Valkyries are ‘jack-of-all-trades’, pretty much. They’re insanely flexible, can be fitted for just about any role…They’re what the army and air force want to have; A single design that can be easily refitted to order, can go from air superiority to ground-based anti-tank and anti-air hunting duties, VTOL capable…They’re fighters, tanks, *and* mechanized infantry all in one. And they can fight toe-to-toe with the 50-foot-tall alien giants who don’t really like us very much.
By the way, for the record? I had only read the first half-dozen or so replies to this before I started in on my long-ass rebuttal, so much of what I said was said earlier. I’m lazy *and* impatient, so sue me. :P
Thanks for summing up a bunch of arguments, K.K. ;)
I just wish people would keep talking after I do one of these posts…it’s like I’m talking to nobody! Waahh!
With that much data, it is hard to come up with something new. Especially if one is not trying to counter the argument.
However there is an in Macross question to this element: How does the VF-1 compare to its newer kin? Does the VF-25 easily beat out the seemingly higher tech fighters from Macross 7 and Plus?
Also (an aside), would any of the newer Macross series be viable for remaking into Robotech? Yes I know the Robotech story went in a completely different direction, but by the time Macross Frontier ends, would it be a good Robotech sequel…or is that completely out of the question.
Ithekro: Presumably, due to later innovations with tech, and the VF-25’s apparent performance advantage compared to the current front-line VF-171, which seems based on the VF-17. Remember that Alto says that the VF-25 is supposed to be still in prototype stage, and Ozma counters that it is currently undergoing combat testing with SMS by the will of the designers. The fighters in Macross Plus were basically concept planes, whose technologies would be incorporated into later fighters… inspired by the ATF competition where the YF-22 Rapier and YF-23 Black Widow competed to be the next production fighter.
As for which would be best for reworking? I’d have to say Macross Dynamite 7, or this series would be best for it… especially since the latter has Zentradi, a new alien threat, and they could say some of the characters are ‘of the Protoculture’.
Random thought (having no watched the show yet): Have we seen the new Macross do anything yet? The fighters are nice and all, but what about the capital ship? (I’ve not found any pictures of it yet anyplace). Does it transform like the older models? I would assume so, since that seems to be standard fleet defense policy in the Macross 7 era.
Not yet, but it’s doubtful that it will until actual capital ships start showing up.
The New Macross class vessels are all capable of transformation, but it’s usually saved for emergencies. (Also, the New Macross class ships are all of the same model…that’s why they’re New Macross class. :) There would’ve been upgrades over the years, but the class is still the same. A new model would be a whole new class of ship.
The Frontier is Macross 25, New Macross class colony fleet, just like 7. It looks different because each fleet is different (and it’s been a whole bunch of years since the events of Macross 7). Also, it hasn’t separated from the city section yet, so it’s hard to make out. (It’s rather tiny compared to the city dome)
The valkirie wins, always. You know, the valkyrie shoots some missiles and… suddenly missiles, hundreds of them. And can shoots beer cans too. That cant be beated.
It’s all about military doctrine.
Remember Erich Hartman, WW2, German Ace (this is a serious understatement) 1404 combat missions, 825 engagements, 352 aerial victories, never shot down by enemy aircraft. His “fighting style” is textbook: See – Decide – Attack – Break.
How does this apply to the F22?
See – Long range radar + stealth
Decide – Long range radar, computer interface designed to allow pilot to focus on mission
Attack – Missiles. Range advantage, strong countermeasure resistance (electronic, chaff, flare, even hard kill – ie bullets), very agile, high off-boresight, lock-on launch capable, in-flight corrections possible.
Break – range, stealth, speed.
The Macross fighters may be based on different military doctrines, which I do not know, so I won’t talk about that.
In the end, on a VF-0 vs F22 combat, it depends on how they use those machines. So long as F22’s fight it’s fight and not the VF-0’s fight, chances of winning are high. Same goes for the VF-0.
An F-22 may be able to get a lock on a VF-1 much easier, but variable fighters have been shown to consistently shoot down approaching missiles, so that’s not really much of a bonus for the F-22. You could also probably get a VF-1 to be JDAM capable, since JDAMs are pretty much just snap-on kits to regular bombs, although that has little bearing on the two in a dogfight.
And another thing. Yes, the VF-1 can operate in space, but it can’t GET to space! So unless you’re strapping a rocket to it’s ass or carrying it up there, it has a flight ceiling.