the modern golden ages of anime discussion
Categories: anime, commentary
Tagged: haruhi suzumiya
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After reading everyone’s comments on modern golden ages of anime, I decided that I’ll respond with a post to allow myself a bit more freedom. I want to thank everyone for their insightful observations, and I’m surprised by the high level of anime knowledge in the discussion.
First off, let’s establish the dictionary definition of “golden age”:
golden age (n.)
1. A period of great peace, prosperity, and happiness.
2. Greek & Roman Mythology. The first age of the world, an untroubled and prosperous era during which people lived in ideal happiness.
With that out of the way, let’s begin…
Such debates such as the golden age of various professional sports, movies, or even anime usually seperate people into distinct generations with the younger (aka newer fans) usually thinking newer stuff representing more of a golden age, while older fans thinking that older stuff represents it (crazy people who just like really old stuff for the sake of it not withstanding). – Epi
One of my favorite points that was brought up. I consider myself both a new and old fan, having gone through my Doraemon years, my Robotech years, my VHS fansub years, and now my digital revolution years. As great as DYRL was, it was a pain in the ass to acquire and watch anime back then, and anytime I received a new tape of Doraemon was cause for celebration like I just scored a copy of Super Mario 3. Being a fan is just so much better than being a fan 5 or 10 or more years ago that it’s hard to dismiss the current age as a golden age. I think the fan experience has to be included in the formula somewhere.
(BTW, Japanese fans are benefiting from the digital revolution as well… Share and 2chan come to mind. Would Densha Otoko be possible without the digital revolution?)
Hmm…I think the problem with this article as a whole is that generally we only remember the GOOD shows from a period.
I do not think anime today is fundamentally any better or worse than anime was 5, 10, 15 or 20 years ago. Yes, they are different, but thats because society and the audience is different.
Basically my overall point is that defining a “golden age†is utterly meaningless and stupid. – Fencedude
I think Starbucks making me say, “grande” instead of “small” is utterly meaningless and stupid also, but I still end up going along with it. Golden ages are nostalgia… it’s good to take a step back once in a while and look at the big picture instead of just focusing on Shana’s melonpan addiction. I don’t think that anime show quality necessary defines a golden age… my argument included other factors including availability, technology, and audience base. As for bad shows, they are not remembered… they are lost in the depths of space-time… when was the last time an anime blogger brought up Phinal Approach or Avengers? Good shows are remembered and talked about. The internet and digital distribution has just skyrocketed anime’s popularity that no single anime has done before. Still, it’s not just the technology… fans have really stepped up recently. More fansubbers in more languages than ever, more dumb memes created than ever (Jessica Simpson!), and more anime bloggers than ever.
Nah, many of you guys are just being picky. Indeed many animes are filled with flaws and some of them almost pass of as being unwatchable or unentertaining bla bla. – Musashiken
Good anime makes for terrible blogging. That’s my excuse.
I 100% agree about the 80’s being a golden age. That’s part of my reasoning for asking questions about “golden age for who?†or “who says that it’s a golden age?†– jpmeyer
Golden ages are created by historians who write boring books and argue about when is a golden age. When many historians agree, than it is so. It’s the exact opposite process of forming the script for Mai Otome.
I’m just one person, but I tossed my anime creditials out there. Based on my experience with anime, I think now is the modern golden age. Though the end result is nothing since it’s not like social security reform or anything groundbreaking as that.
The Golden age of Anime was the 1980s. However, Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu has a potential to become a new historical landmark in Anime history. – wontaek
I read that wikipedia article, and I’m a dissenting opinion. Anime in mono sound and next to impossible-to-get fansubs a golden age does not make. As bento-cube said:
Ahh, I remember the times when I sat down to catch stuff like Vandread on TV. Back then, I think it was probably preeetty hard to get anime the way we do over BT nowadays. Just the thought of how much trouble I went to just to try and get my grubby paws on some new stuff to watch was… – bento-cube
Was it a golden age of anime in Japan? I won’t dispute that. Is it a golden age of anime for people in America or elsewhere in the world. No. Is now a worldwide anime golden age? Signs point to yes. Again, it’s up to the fans and historians to dictate what a golden age is and when it occurs.
Speaking of Haruhi and her melancholy, there were a huge quantity of comments concerning Haruhi…
I am not sure if Haruhi deserves classic title just yet. Only 2 episodes have aired and parody is tricky thing to do. It’s not 100% sure that whole series is as good as first 2 episodes. – Anga
I never inducted Haruhi into the pantheon, only saying that it has the chance the join them. It’s like saying that Shaun Livingston is the next Magic Johnson… he’s not there yet, but he has shown flashes of high his ceiling can be. Will Shaun ever learn to hit an open jumper? Still, I wanted to make a point about Haruhi… before, it took a long ass time before the word spread about a series. I’ve read at least six “I’m blogging Haruhi because other bloggers are raving about it” posts and at least two “I’m sick of all the bloggers getting boners from Haruhi” posts. So, yep, thank you Al Gore for the interweb.
I think I counted 10 mentions of Haruhi in this one post. Can’t say I blame you. Haruhi’s awesomeness is blinding. – zero
8. Did I mention Haruhi? – wontaek
While the future for animes look uncertain, it`s animes like Haruhi that gives us hope >D – Tsubaki
Or on second thought… maybe I should have inducted it…
Now that I think about it, Haruhi is like the exact opposite of what I would think of a “golden age†anything would be. Why? Because so far it appears to be one big inside joke, and it’s really frustrating when you’re the person surrounded by a bunch of other people telling an inside joke. – jpmeyer
Or maybe not. If Haruhi is Shaun Livingston, Pani Poni Dash would be Rasheed Wallace. How many non-US visitors have I completely alienated with these NBA in-jokes? Might be fun for people who follow the NBA and anime, but for others, complete blank slate. Just like showing Haruhi to a bunch of DBZ and Bleach fans. Point taken, jp. Still, it’s only two episodes… give Haruhi 24 more episodes, one fucked-up ending, three even more fucked-up movies, and ten years, and let’s see how it does against Shinji, Rei, and Asuka.
There were also a few opinions on my pantheon shows. I ask the following when deciding what becomes a pantheon show: (1) Did it define or redefine a genre. (2) Did it do well commercially? (3) Did it appeal to both the casual (i.e. Inu Yasha) fans as well as the hardcore (i.e. Mushishi) fans? (4) Were nekomimi, bandages, melonpan, twincest, squirrel pr0n, doing your best, or Meyrin involved in any shape or form? And the pantheon is a small group… just because someone is a good basketball player, it doesn’t mean that they’re the next Michael Jordan.
(BTW, since MJ retired the first time, there’s been Vince Carter, T-Mac, Kobe, LBJ, Carmelo, and Wade billed as the next MJ. Save for Kobe, none of them has won a championship. Pantheon guys like MJ and Magic win championships.)
BTW… F/SN rocks and breaks everything…- Syaoran Li
I decided that F/SN is the Darko of the anime world. So much potential. So much hype. So disappointing, yet can still put up a solid 10/8 on a crummy team. Sea Slugs must feel terrible for drafting him at the 2 spot. (See, NBA in-joke… okay, I’ll stop now.)
Does it matter that we’re drawing conclusions about an industry using only the industry’s niche productions? Fans might gush over something like Mushishi, but the biggest hits on TV in Japan are Sazae-san, Doraemon, Digimon, One Piece, and Pretty Cure. It seems like the closest thing is Nana, but that only has good ratings for an anime. – jpmeyer
It’s more about audience than anything else. Appealing to kids is a surefire way to get a larger audience, but it doesn’t mean more people watching = better show. Crash won best picture this year, and it was nowhere near the top of the $ charts. None of the other best picture nominees save for Brokeback were big money making films, definitely when compared to Narnia. I’ll argue that Brokeback, Crash, and Munich are more niche for Hollywood than Cowboy Bebop, Utena, and Kenshin are to anime. I’d much rather pitch, “Okay, I want to make this anime about this samurai who won’t kill anyone” than “Okay, I want to make a movie about gay cowboys and have this Taiwanese dude direct it.”
Evangelion is not niche. Even though it appeals to a more limited audience, it managed to really destroy the boundaries of audenices. They aired it on PBS in California. That’s why it’s pantheon… if it can kick-off a PBS pledge drive, it’s probably pantheon material. Dirty Pair also qualitifes under that requirement.
And people like Fruits Baskets…
You have valid observations, but I do disagree on putting Fruits Basket inferior to a show like Evangelion. – Estara
I also think Fruits Basket is a series much better than anything from the nineties. – Hopeless
If two shoujo series (Fruits Basket and Super Gals) were the highlight for 2001, it’s saying something. I just knew what it was. Still, Fruits Basket has not spawned the type of discussion that the last few moments of Eva has, and Eva has a much wider appeal. (I know people who still refuse to watch Fruits Basket because it’s shoujo… idiots, I know, yet I know no anime fan who hasn’t watched Eva. At least anime fan as defined as level 2 or above.)
And I’ll leave off with my favorite comment…
By Jove I feel old… – Crusader
I felt ancient after writing that post. Sometimes, I feel like I’m getting too old for this.
25 Responses to “the modern golden ages of anime discussion”
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When I was halfway through reading the post I swore I was reading a Sports Guy column. Though I’m sure you lost alot of people with NBA jokes but I for one loved it. On that note who would be the NBA equivalent of the Maihime-Otome series (ie started off well then became train-wreck). Shawn Kemp? In order to add to the Haruhi comments I’d say the show has LeBron James potential(what with all the hype). You should totally dedicate a post on such comparisons.
I think that, if you compare Furuba to Eva, then of course Furuba loses out. Eva was such a huge phenomenon that putting Furuba (or in fact, any show) up to its standards would be a losing cause.
A better point would be how Fruits Basket stacks up to the other shows you mentioned. I think its popular enough and influential enough to stack up against your second tier pantheon.
There’s no chance it can be rated higher than Eva even despite personal tastes.
Yeah, you didn’t induct. But you did mentioned Haruhi few times in single post. =)
And general opinion around blogs seems to be quite overwhelming too.
Btw, whether Haruhi succeeds immensely or crashes and burns, all this hype would be worth it just to see the reaction from the anime community.
So many bloggers have put their eggs into the Haruhi basket that we’ll be seeing quite a reaction if it fails.
Not that I think it will, but it now has an incredible set of expectations to live up to.
>> When I was halfway through reading the post I swore I was reading a Sports Guy column.
The funny thing is that I always thought of myself as an Easterbrook-type, especially with all the dumb memes I like to create. This blog even has a “running items” dept, just I rarely post stuff in it. Anyway, Mai Hime/Otome would have to be Ron Artest. Early on, everyone was thinking, “Artest is good enough to lead the Pacers to a championship.” That was Hime. Then he went into stands as a million Pacers fans went, “NOOOOO!”. Which is exactly my response when I saw the Anty/Nina/Mr Wong love triangle.
>> So many bloggers have put their eggs into the Haruhi basket that we’ll be seeing quite a reaction if it fails.
I like blogging train wreck series. ^^
Expect stuff like “Kyoto Animation was purchased by Sunrise, only they haven’t announced it yet” from me if it happens. Either way, it beats the hell out of blogging Air Gear, dot hack roots, and Shinigama no Ballad.
(And yes, Fruits Basket is definitely second tier stuff… on the same level as Kare Kano, but I still take Kare Kano 1-18 over it.)
Peace: If all the flame wars have ended I guess you can say this, but as for world peace as much I wish anime will achieve this…
Prosperity: I don’t know about you I wish I had more money to buy anime products.
Happiness: I’m not happy… ;)
While it is true that EVA has spawned lots of discussion, I do feel however that it always comes down to whether you’re a fan that extolls the complexity (real and imagined) of it or guys like me who admit that Rei and Asuka greatly if not soley contributed to its success, and abhor the manifesto of complaining and teenage emo angsty types (not to mention the horrid display of ameteur tactics being passed off as elite shock trooper maneuvers). There’s also a third faction that simply loves Rei and Asuka and no one can debunk the fact that they have spawned a cult and numerous clones.
I do however believe that this is a golden age for anime, if simply because technological advancements have created for the first time an international otaku community connected by fansubbing, bittorent, broadband, and blogs. The fact that Ghibli films are actually grossing significant sums outside of Japan shows that at least one studio has won mainstream acceptance and recognition.
“I just scored a copy of Super Mario 3”
I lost my NES but I still have my old cartridges…
“I know people who still refuse to watch Fruits Basket because it’s shoujo… idiots, I know, yet I know no anime fan who hasn’t watched Eva. At least anime fan as defined as level 2 or above.”
I refuse to watch EVA for a third time and I only needed to see Grave of the Fireflies (much more thought provoking than EVA) once. Still you have brought up an oddity about anime fans. I would like to think that the majority of Otakus are reasonably intelligent, but it is stupid and silly to equate Shoujo = girlie man and Yayoi/Yuri makes you a homosexual. I live in a city full of homosexuals, trans-sexuals, and drag queens and can honestly say such behavior is not transmitted by diffusion, active transport, or osmosis as Falwell and Pat Robertson would have you believe. In fact I think such people are by far the most colorful an interesting (better tahn taime travellers, espers, and to certain extent alien frogs), and I even discovered that Gay Republican isn’t an oxymoron.
The first anime I ever saw was Sailor Moon, and I still love it, though increasingly for nostalgia. I am also suprised that you didn’t mention this series come to think of it, since it spawned magical girl. Though my job does entail team work I’d be lying if it was all for justice and a fight against evil.
I do agree that Suzumiya Haruhi and Fujioka Haruhi have created a buzz in the blogging community I have never seen before. Though it remains to be seen if they will live up to expectations I feel that in general there is generally high hopes. (I do believe that Haru means spring, coinicidence?)
Speaking of history as an avid wannabe Military Historian even if golden age was written out we still have:
The Before Time: no anime
The First Age: beginnings of Japanese animation
The Dark ages: (1930s-1950s) anime as propaganda tool (heresey!)
The Second Age: The Age of Japanese only
The Third Age: The Age of laser disc and video cassette and minimal conquest
The Fourth Age: The Age of Everlasting Expansion (anime moves with the internet)
At age 20 I feel old and salty because of the stuff that happens at work, and living near a very shady house for 7 years.
If its any consolation old man…
-Old age deprives the intelligent man only of qualities useless to wisdom.
> >(And yes, Fruits Basket is definitely second tier stuff… on the same level as Kare Kano, but I still take Kare Kano 1-18 over it.)
I actually think the first 4 episodes of Kare Kano taken as its own would be nigh impossible for any anime, romance or not, to top. It was just too… perfect.
>>The first anime I ever saw was Sailor Moon, and I still love it, though increasingly for nostalgia. I am also suprised that you didn’t mention this series come to think of it, since it spawned magical girl. Though my job does entail team work I’d be lying if it was all for justice and a fight against evil.
Great point. Like it or not, Sailor Moon was incredibly influential for the non-Japanese speaking world.
Koreans and Chinese gave no attention to series like Sailor Moon, Maihime-Otome series, or Mushishi, and most will give you puzzled face if you mention Robotech, but will light up if you mention Mospeda or Macross. Fruits Basket has a special meaning as so many felt the problems there in more closer to themselves compared to Kare Kano or Evangellion, a series that is praised by many, but also drove many away from anime. The biggest Japanese anime market outside Japan is not USA but Korea, followed by China. It is obvious due to cultural ties within these countries. Your definition for golden age is valid only for English speaking world. For Koreans, it is either the 80s for guys who are born before 1975 or from 2000 for people born after that.
As long as FSN isn’t like Jay Williams… but hopefully better than Keith Van Horn.
Meheheheh. I’ll be haunting your little corner of the Internet very often now, so get used to it. =D
Well anyway. I’m thinkin that it might be a little early to say that this is the Golden Age of anime. (And the fact that if this is the Golden Age, its gonna go downhill from here, which aint good either.) A peak is a peak because of the slopes on either side…so…I’ll leave it at that.
I recognize that my own jumping onto the Haruhi bandwagon might have been a tad hasty but it was so surprising and the opening two eps stood out so much from everything I had seen so far for this season that it really made a big impact on me. I suppose as the hype dies down, I’ll be looking to see if it can continue to deliver on its promise.
wontaek raises an excellent point about possible differences between East Asian and Western fandom. For example, there is only one English-language fansub group working on Keroro (so far up to Ep 6) while there are at least half a dozen Chinese-language groups working on the gunso (from Ep 1 to 104).
I’m also slightly suprised that, given your title of ‘golden age of anime discussion’ that you didn’t compare the platforms for discussion e.g. forums, IRC, blogs.
You totally lost me with the whole NBA comparision.
Dang, add a footnote or something. Lol.
If jason wanted to give this a real Sports Guy vibe, he totally would’ve said that his love for Haruhi is surpassed only by his love for Tom Brady.
On a no-joking note, I thought that thinking about the mid/late-90’s was tricky because there’s a difference in time between when the shows aired in Japan and when they came out in America. Trigun, for instance came out in Japan in 1998, came out on DVD in America in 2001, and hit Cartoon Network in 2003. Which of these periods does Trigun get considered to be in? Do more than one of these count?
>> I’m also slightly suprised that, given your title of ‘golden age of anime discussion’ that you didn’t compare the platforms for discussion e.g. forums, IRC, blogs.
Actually, I only touched upon this because there’s no much to say prior to the internet. It was very difficult to talk about anime beyond a circle of friends back in the early to mid 90s. Even towards the end, there wasn’t a plethora of community sites beyond Anime on DVD. Nowadays, it’s much easier with the web. It’s just no contest. A vast improvement in every sense.
>> Koreans and Chinese gave no attention to series like Sailor Moon, Maihime-Otome series, or Mushishi
Mushishi and Mai Otome were done subbing in Chinese before the English groups. Mushishi finished in Chinese on 3/17. C1 didn’t complete Mushishi until 3/20.
Wa ha ha ha. I understood every Nba joke there.
Anyways, you’re sorta on track with Haruhi and Shaun Livingston thing. Shaun showes promise but has not yet delivered like Episode 2 of Haruhi did. Haruhi is more along the lines of Ben Wallace. In the beginning, undrafted because it looked like crap -well, for me- but then bam, starts to do the little thing like good characters, good story, etc, and soon enough it might grow to be an all- star. (liked the Darko/FSN comparison)
“BTW, since MJ…Magic win championships.” In defense of LBJ and Wade… they’re still both relatively new. When Kobe had Shaq, he was at least still very large and troublesome -say, at the end of his “prime”. The Shaq that Wade has… he’s just a clump of meat that’s trash. This is the first year you can say that LBJ has a “good” team. If Hughes gets better, they’d have a chance… but no championship yet… Vince Carter and the Nets, as of now, are a force, so they have championship potential. T-mac is a lost cause. Melo also has a potential team, but at the pace they’re going… Anyways, just throwing that non-anime related clump out there.
Almost every anime from Japan gets subbed within 12 hours in Korea. Compared to many other anime of the time, Mushishi and Mai-Otome is not attracting much attention in Korea. Solty-Rei got more attention than Mushishi, and Canvas2 and some Korean Made Anime totally beat Mai-Otome. Things like Guyver and Black Cat also receives much more attention there. The bottom line is that there is much difference between taste of Korean, Japanese, Chines, and English speaking audience. Popular series like Canvas2 and Fate gets fansubbed within 3 hours by at least 3 different goupr in Korea. Another thing you have to notice is that ever since 70s, Major TV broadcasting companies in Korea has aired dubbed versions of Japanese Anime, the likes of which include Little Princess, Anne of Green Gable, World Literary Masterpiece Theater, and many Educational anime in PRIME TIME SLOT of 5:00 pm to 8:00pm. There are lots of G rated Animes that most English speaking anime fan has no knowledge of. The reason for 80s in Korea was the introduction of Gundam merchandise and Ghibli Films. After year 2000, many adult rated Japanese Anime begun to air as well. Some bi-lingual audience actually says Korean text for Azumanga is superior in some of the episodes, and I believe ending song for Korean version, which is totally different from Japanese version, is funnier and more enjoyable. There is a saying that 90% of things you can find in Japan can also be found in Korea as well. The problem is only 20% of what is in Korea can be found in Japan. This is due to Japanese Right’s ambition of reconquering of Korea, and Korean pride over historical fact that it was koreans which brought writing, porcelain making, and other cultural items to Japan. Search Dokdo in the internet and you will see how deep the divide is between two countries that share so many things together.
Good grief. Darko Milicic gets mentioned here as well? I thought I had enough of his jokes from whatifsports.com.
The reason why the Chinese and Koreans can have things subbed faster is I susupect, because the three languages are more closely related and have been translated from one to another since ancient times.
Much of the bad blood in the Far East can be directly traced back to the evil Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. The fight against it contributted greatly to the division of Korea and China (Taiwan and the PRC), not to mention the creation of a favorable climate for communism under the Stalin brand.
The South Korean Marine Corps at least is made up of a bunch of respectable blokes that I would never want to fight (24 to 1 kill ratio at its peak). You have to be ridiculously dumb to try and pick a fight with them. My co-workers who have been on deployment in Korea say that the Koreans hate the Japanese. At least the ones who live around American deployment zones. There is also evidence that the Imperial family was in fact originally Korean as the grave goods are remarkably similar. To date the Imperial family has not submitted for DNA comparisons, that I know of between them and Koreans. Speaking of the Imperial Family even Japanese Historians agree that the legitimate line of Emperors died out at Yoshino during the Kamakura period. It has been claimed since 1911 that there were only six pretenders that didn’t have the Imperial regailia while their descendants were legit because they did. Strangely enough the orginal Imperial regalia was thought to be lost when the Heike fell.
Actually it goes back even furthur to Japanese pirates off Chinese Coast and toyotomi’s invasion of Korea in 1592. Part of the blame for division of Korea falls on USA as FDR totally underestimated the role of Korean liberation fighters in China and strategic importance Soviet Union placed on Korean Peninsula. Well, Everybody made tons of mistake during the first half of 20th century, but those belong to World War II sites.
Heh. I am a level 3 anime fan according to your definition. I just turned 39 on the 7th of April. I have never watched Evangelion and I am not planning on doing so. I have browsed into some of the manga, though.
Fruits Basket the anime discussion probably has died down, Fruitsbasket the manga is slowly and dramatically winding down with lots of mailing list discussions etc.
My Furuba anime love site, which is very prejudiced, is here at http://furuba.bookish.net.
Unfortunately I got lazy ^^ so there’s only detail analysis of 6 episodes.
quote:
If two shoujo series (Fruits Basket and Super Gals) were the highlight for 2001, it’s saying something. I just knew what it was.
:endquote
What does that mean? That shoujo can’t be a highlight? Hmmm.
Still, your views keep in being interesting reading :).
彩雲国物語 This is another series that is attracting many attentions in Korea.
“Saiunkoku Monogatari”
I’m glad you liked my comment from before!
I was writing out my reply but then it got so ridiculously long I just posted it up on my blog instead (www.animeslice.com).
Thank you jpmeyer
I’m going to hate to admit this, but I’ve actually never watched Evangelion. And according to the guide, I’m somewhere between level 5 and 7. I think I’m a six, but I could see where I fit as a five or a seven also.